Specific Contributions of the Innovators of Our Generation

[McKenzie]

I concur with Derek about Virg and I have already shared WHY! in past threads. He might not be playing with Sting or you might not like his pocket but who really cares he sure doesn't. He is THE! Innovator of the past ten to 15 years. I just got my hand's on an Audio copy of a recent Virgil clinic from November 2003 and he discusses his personal view of studio work and what attracts him to projects. Studio work and playing in a supporting role is O.K. with him, it is money and sometimes is a bit satisfying, sometimes it might be neccessary. But he has been there and done that ALOT (in Australia) he plays and practices and get's involved in projects to express what is on his mind and what is within him, to be able to release the on going creative process that drives him. To be part of creating something not done before to be part of a vision envisioned by other's also, but there has to be a challenge and it has to cause him to grow as an artist, if it does not he can basically take it or leave it.

Dig

[McKenzie]

Agree with you 1000% Shedder, being a very physical player DOES NOT mean you cannot be fluid at the same time. Virg is very "energetic" so to speak in much of what he play's but his execution is still very smooth and consistent. His execution is not just precise but even and smooth that IS=fluid. Being a relaxed drummer DOES NOT make you fluid, there are guy's who play very relaxed and they are NOT fluid at all but down right sloppy and very inconsistent at times. It is about execution, not how you set up or look or how much physical motion there is.

Carlock makes me CRINGE when I look at how he set's up and the physical motion going on but the execution is there and what he pulls off works real well most of the time. That is what matters.

Dig

[beat Hit]

Derek...

Simply out of ignorance on my part, since I don't know Carlock's playing (except 3 clips posted HERE), what aspect(s) of his drumming ranks him as an innovator? Since I am at it... You have any CD recommendations? I heard of Wayne Krantz but that's all... Thanks.

[Derek DeFields]

The Krantz stuff is all you need. Listen to Greenwich Mean; his tuning, his touch, sound, phrasing. I've never heard another player like him which to me anyway, is innovative.

[Plaid]

...but it doesn't sound like you're disagreeing with me on the feels of the songs, Dig. I actually think that execution of one's stroke can absolutely have an affect on the pocket itself. It differs from player to player of course. Yes, Weckl was dogged in the past (by me as well) by being almost too precise and machinelike, but I'll tell you this....I would personally MUCH rather hear DW playing a song 15 years ago than VD playing that same song now. It seems like I'm getting scorned here for implying that Virg's pocket and feel just aren't among the best that I personally have listened to, and that's fine, but I know what I hear, and for my personal tastes in listening to groove/pocketed backbeat (which is the style I enjoy the most and shows the most character in my opinion), Virgil does nothing for me. Let's be honest.....how many of you out there listen to Virg to hear how good his "feel" and "fluidity" are in a song??? I would be willing to bet that honestly, you all (and myself) are for the most part enamored by his playing for basically ONE reason....his technical brilliance.....and there is NOTHING wrong with that. As I've said before in the past, those types of players are NEEDED in the drumming community to show how limits can be pushed.

[shedder]

sounds like you're describing thomas lang.

[FuseU1]

Both of you are actually right, for several reasons all of which are too involved to go into here again...
Besides, this kind of debate is basically moot [img]wink.gif[/img] ...
We've beaten the "VC/DW/VD Vs all comers" to death...shame, shame, you guys know better by now [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Steve once commented that Simon didn't do a whole lot for him...although i can completely understand this, Simon's always been 1 of my fav pop/prog-rock-fusion drummers [at the risk of labeling someone]...I "totally dig" the drumg on his 1st solo disc, the Beck & Townshend stuff, & that live Lobotomys vid [thx 5 [img]wink.gif[/img] ]...TBo once said he doesn't necessarily care for Tommy Campbell's playg [from the old Zildjian NY vid] - but I happen to think McLaughlin's Belo Horizonte had some killer drumg on it [& is a better rep of TC's playg than the NY vid]...some guys don't like Chambers' solo phrasing, but they like his playg within the song...Scofield's Loud Jazz, Blue Matter, & Pick Hits, awa the McLaughlin & DeFrancesco, & Dan stuff kick my tail every time i listen to...
Virg to me is an "Alien," such as is VC & DW, each of whom we all agree are within the class of being modern-day "Elvins/Buddys/Paynes/Morellos/Gadds/Billys/Tonys" of "our generation" & in history...
I totally understand Plaid's point, & he is entitled to it...at the same time, & like Dij & Shed, when i listen to PX Live Oz/Moonbabies, or OTV/SYI/Stretch, I always walk away with the expression wiped from my face & replaced with a [img]eek.gif[/img] ...however, I am not floored w the Vai dvd [altho it is a great dvd nonetheless afa being a rock concert, & Virg does do some cool phrasings every N&T, but the "groove" doesnt grab me by the cojones]...
It all comes down to personal tastes.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ February 16, 2004 02:03 PM: Message edited by: FuseU1 ]</font>

[Plaid]

Originally posted by shedder:
sounds like you're describing thomas lang.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Him too. [img]wink.gif[/img]

....but as a certain member of this board [img]wink.gif[/img] has said before.......Thomas plays solos, but "says" nothing.

[Plaid]

Fuse, you're right. We've all been on that DW/VC/VD thing numerous times, and I'm deviating from the whole point of this thread, which is what you all feel are the contributions from this generation's greatest players. (not to DEBATE them, but to LIST what you think they are for any given player) My apologies to all. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[McKenzie]

No need to apologize to me Plaid I like to understand where guy's are coming from my understanding can grow also. The discourse on this board is good because we do not get into childish meanderings and personal attacks. Debate and expanding our views is healthy and I think we do it in a good fashion on this board, compared to other places.

I really understand where you are coming from ALOT more. Virgil's pocket sense affects the way you relate to his fill's, combo's etc. My self I tend to seperate them much more, other's do not. Like you said some guy's are on top of the beat right on the beat or behind the beat and everyone has a preference. Apart from Virgil's pocket(like it or not) his stroke execution is still done with GREAT control and his creativity is Astounding to me. I have something that I want to send to you soon Plaid I think you will enjoy it MUCH!, at least I think you will. Good talking to you.

Dig